You tell me!

What the heck is going on in the "Willapa River" (Pacific Co.)? Can anyone please explain the reasoning why the WDFW has restricted the fishing from any floating device from Nov. 1-Mar.31 from bridge on Willsps Rd. (Camp One Bridge) to Fork Creek"? Its been closed for many years to fishing from a boat, but I have never heard the reason for doing so! The rules say that this is the only time that this restriction applies. Why?

Where is their (WDFW) logic? You can fish from the banks in that same location during that same period. You can float your boat or tube down that same location because it is "navigable waters". So why not allow a guy to fish from his float tube or drift boat?

If it is to protect "wild fish" when they are spawning, then why not close it completely? Why not apply the same "restrictions" to all rivers if this is the reason?


All this land is private, so was this rule just made to give a few special land owners some special fishing opportunity on our public waters?

This time frame is really the only time that a person has enough water to make a float down river. It's also the time when all the fishing for salmon and steelhead occurs! I am at a total lost as to why this section of water has been closed to fishing from any floating device! Do any of you "really know" why it is closed to fishing from any floating device?


Cowlitzfisherman

cOWLITZ,

I'll tell you what I know. Most of my info. comes from a friend of mine (some years older than me) who fished it back in the day when you could use boats decades ago. I asked the same question years ago and this is what he told me:

Apparently, boat traffic was considerable and since the willapa is not what you would call a large river by any means, many of the locals were getting fed up with the traffic. This was when driftboats were just coming into fashion and fishers weren't used to them in large numbers. The locals then went to the then department of game and struck a deal whereby the landowners would not post their land to tresspassing IF the dept. of game would adopt a boat restriction during the winter season.

The rest is history. Now, we have a formerly great river that has a majority of it's land posted and still no use of boats.

I have two different emotions here. First, I don't mind the boat restriction at all because I hate boats on small rivers. On the other hand, I'm pissed off at the locals who wasted no time posting their land once the restriction was in place. I have a few friends that live out there and I have seen first hand the greed and lack of trust the locals have in guys who simply want to respect the land and fish. On the occassions I have approached property owners, I have been rejected 3 to 1 over the years. Sad deal.....it used to be one of my favorite rivers.

Eric

Thanks for your quick reply!

What you just told us sounds just like what I and others have suspicion. This kind of sounds like the "deal" that a landowner did on the Cowlitz when he sold a fishing easement to WDFW and then some years later the land owner locked everyone out except for a few of his "good old buddies".

If this is really true of what has happen on the Willapa, fishermen should be outraged! If they (the land owners) are now being allowed to post the land that was agreed to be left open, then things need to change and change fast. I know that the Willapa is a smaller river, but there are lots of them "smaller rivers" out there that guys are now floating on in tubes/rafts. I think that the tube/rafts are the thing of the future for fishing on small rivers that are continually being cut off to the public by a few greedy land owners, who only want to allow their buddies access to fish on.

Let's not forget, the rivers in our state are public, and the public must not allow private groups of land owners to block off every way of access to them. Crossing over a land owner's property is one thing, but preventing the public access on the water to harvest "state" hatchery fish is a whole different story (yes, the Willapa has state hatcheries on it). If fishermen do not turn this kind of fish management (and special deals) around then they probably deserve what they get!

Fishermen should be outraged if this is true. If it is true, I can thing of no better place or way then this forum to begin reversing this act.

What are the members on this board willing to do to keep your waterways open to fishing? Let's hear what you are willing to do fishermen... If anything at all!



Cowlitzfisherman

The rivers should be for everyone, not just the lucky few with money to buy up its banks. The locals got tired of seeing boats go down, tuff. Maybe they will shut down Stevens Pass for me so I can leave my house on a Sunday and not have to deal with all the backed up traffic on Highway 2 from the skiers which I am personally sick of seeing. Of course that last sentence was just a rant but if you do not want to see people on a river in which you have bought property then you better start packing and move because the rivers are for everyone.

Does anyone else know of any other river like the Willapa which has such a ludicrous fishing rule applied to it, if so what river is it?

It's hard to believe that WDFW would only make such a rule for just a "one single river".

It will be even harder to believe that they will be able to justify keeping such a rule in this day and age!


Cowlitzfisherman

the Green River in King Co. has a temporary boating restriction similar to the Willipa starting on Nov. 1st each year...it makes sense to me on such a small river, and there's plenty of bank access anyway, so no boat is really needed. also, keep in mind that you cannot fish only while "in" the boat. it is perfectly legal to float the river, you just have to get out to fish.

Metalhead Mojo

Just curious, why does it "make sense" to you to keep other fishermen off the water from Nov.1?

You also said; "that it is similar to the Willipa". In what way is it similar? Why do you feel that it's ok to fish from the bank, but not from a floating device? Is one way more legal or illegal then another…or what?

I just want to understand your logic!

Again, thanks for your prompt reply

Cowlitzfisherman

i didn't say it makes sense to keep people off the water, i said it makes sense to me since the green is such a small river (anywhere from the dam to tidewater you can easily cast from the bank to the other side). you do not need a boat to fish this river. there is tons of public bank access and i also have access across private land (and i am not the only one with permission to do this).


why do i think that the regs on the green are similar to the Willipa?...

from the regs for the green...
"Fishing from any floating device prohibited November 1 - February 28" (ending March 15 on the upper river)

from the regs for the willipa...
"Fishing from any floating device prohibited November 1 - March 31"

i would call that similar.


i will remind everyone again...you can still float the river if you want, you just have to get out to fish.

OK Metalhead Mojo

Why then does it make sense for any floating-fishing closer on either the Green or the Willapa?

What is its purpose other then limiting public access to public waterways?


Cowlitzfisherman

i dont know what the underlying reason for the history behind that rule is, ive got a good idea why but it doesn't matter much to me...i don't feel like i am being denied access because of it. you can still float the river to get to your fav spots, it's not a big issue to me.

C.F. We have used the DB for transportation on some puget sound rivers for years.The river you speak of have any bars you can wade and fish ?

CF, I don't understand the logic of your protest. Regulations similar to the one you disagree with have been in effect on small Puget Sound rivers for years. If the river is navigable, you can float hole to hole, and still have a considerable advantage over the bank angler who has to drive and walk into the holes. Where's the discrimination there? Friends of mine floated the Cedar River for years this way, and the only complaints I heard from them were about the lawbreakers they encountered who were fishing from a boat. You're well aware of the conflicts, often heated, between boaters and bankies on larger rivers. Imagine the level of river rage that would occur if you put a much greater number of driftboats, pontoon boats, and Seylor plastic rafts on a river where most of the holes are the size of a bathtub, and you can touch the opposite bank with the tip of your noodle rod. One thing you're unlikely to see, on these "transportation only" rivers and creeks, is fishing guides floating with clients. Personally, I see the regulation as an attempt by WDFW to limit conflict among user groups, and to restrict the pressure on smaller rivers' fish runs. Got a better idea?

My ignorance will show with this question but if you have to get out to fish are you not trespassing the moment you touch dry land?

Jim

No!

You are allowed public access to any land below the "normal high water line" on a river bank

Cowlitzfisherman

Ok, let's talk about the logic!

Without any "public comment" for well over 20 years on the "Willapa", someone in WDW or WDG (now WDFW) apparently made a rule that to this day has not been supported by the fishing public. I have never talked to any fishermen that supports the rules to ban the type of fishing that would be done from a float tube or drift boat. If we were talking jet sleds, I can and do understand your feelings about that issue. You may be one of those people that always except what WDFW does or tell you! I am not one of those people!

I can not understand why some of you would allow your fishery agency to "dictate" the method in which you choose to fish. If the public is aware of an issue, and then has an open opportunity to fully debate the plus and minuses of the issue…I have no problem with what the majority than decides to do!

But when there is no logic to maintaining such a stupid rule that now exists on the Willapa, I do have a problem with that one!

More logic… You said "If the river is navigable, you can float hole to hole, and still have a considerable advantage over the bank angler who has to drive and walk into the holes." So now you talking about who gets or has the "best" fishing advantage…right? Well what study can you relate to that showed that WDFW has ever done to support taking such an action? Any "public meeting" or "hearings" that you can recall on approving such a rule? Or was it just done in the "good old boy" fashion behind some WDFW staffs chose door? This is 2003 now you know, and we can questions the past actions of our agencies…right? Aren't we supposed to know WHY our agencies makes such rules or laws, or do you propose that we just accept what ever they say is "the right thing to"?

I see that your profile says that you are a "retired teacher". Wasn't it part of your responsibility to teach your students to ask "why" when there appears to be no logical reason for an action? You say; "CF, I don't understand the logic of your protest." My protest is a simple one. All you needed to do was to read my profile! I am not only concern about "public access" on the Cowlitz …I am concern about "all public fishing access"! So that should explain my protest!

You've made a statement that I can't agree with. You said; "Friends of mine floated the Cedar River for years this way, and the only complaints I heard from them were about the lawbreakers they encountered who were fishing from a boat. Well, I had been a guide for well over ten years, I seen just about every way that you can imagine that a fishermen can be a "lawbreaker" and believe me boaters are no more of a "lawbreaker" than the "bankers" are. You don't need boats, rafts, or platoons on the water to create what you call "river rage" either, just look at what happens with the bank fishermen at "Blue Creek" each year!

You also suggested that the rule was possibly created to keep "fishing guides" off the smaller rivers. I don't believe that was WDFW's logic in creating the no-float fishing rules. All they (the guides) would have needed to do is take their clients down to the many fish holding holes which are usually totally surrounded by private property and let their clients out on the bank to fish.

Finally, you asked me; "Got a better idea?" My answer is yes, I do!

It's a simple one, and one that is far overdue. Do the words "public meetings" or 'Public comment" sound familiar to you? My suggestion is this; WDFW should make a list of every river that currently holds any float-fishing restrictions. Secondly, that list should also give their "reason or justification" for such restriction on each river on the list. Thirdly, WDFW should take "public comment" on each river and make those comments available on their web page. Finally, WDFW should adjust or remove the restrictions from the rivers that the majority of the "public" believes should be changed.

Thanks for your reply CedarR, I appreciate your impute on this issue and maybe someone else can also add to why this rule needs to be changed, or at the very least, be validated.

So far, only Eric post has given me an answer that really makes sense to me!


Cowlitzfisherman

Try explaining the high water mark stuff to an irate land owner or lawman while your getting your trespass ticket.
You better have a copy of the R.C.W. with you. although I doubt it would help much.You can probably count on an expensive day in court ,plus a ruined days fishing,even if you do win.

HntnFsh

I would suggest that you go to http://www.adventuresports.com/river/nors/states/wa-law.htm

I would also suggest that you and everyone else on our board download the information called "Who owns the rivers in Washington?" I would make several copies of this document and carry it both in my rig and on me when I am bank fishing. If any land owner attempts to have you arrested, show them the document in a polite manner. Remember, this documents does not support you if you trespassing "across" private lands!

Ask them (the land owner or the officer) if they know what the laws are when it comes to "trespassing" below the "mean high water line" in the State of Washington. Let them read the document, if possible. If you know that your right and you are truly below the "mean high water line" then I would take my chances in court and take the ticket! But first make sure that you have explained your reasoning to the officer or land owner before you sign any citation. That way there will be no excuse for an arresting officer or a land owner to claim that you did not make a "reasonable attempt" to settle the difference before being falsely citied. Never attempt to refuse what the officer tells you to do! Leave and do the following suggested steps:

1) Before you leave, make sure that you get the officers name and badge number, and the time for reference. 2) Then you should write a "formal complaint" (make sure you use the words, "formal complaint") letter to whoever is their captain or head sheriff may be.
3) Explain what has happen, and that you had given the officer and/or the land owner all the information (both verbally and by written documentation) showing that you indeed had the right to be where you were at. 4) Explain that you and your fellow fishermen do not want to be further harassed either by the land owner or by any of his officers who may be called out again. 5) Explain to them how that the lack of the officers knowledge on your rights to be within the "mean high water lines" on state waterways has put both you and the officer at jeopardy.

6) Ask them to please inform ALL of his officers of what the laws are when it comes to "public access on states water ways". 7) Request a written response to your formal complaint. 8) cc a copy of your letter to Mr. Bruce Bjork, Chief of Enforcement for WDFW at 600 N Capital Way Olympia, WA 98504.

That way you will be on record with both the local law enforcement and the WDFW enforcement.

# 9…. Remember to stay cool with your actions and position.

Good luck


Cowlitzfisherman

Good post CF all the information is there, but again make sure you have not trespassed getting to were you are when aproached. I first heard about this from a guy when I was camping at the Kalama Campground. They clam that it is all private and get away with charging a daily fishing fee. Can this be true
they on that snagers hole. Probably as illigal as the snagers fishing it.

I would be the first to admit that my memory is, frankly, terrible!

Was there a board member who tried to cite that law (link in CFM's post) in a court case and the judge ruled that the property owner's property extended to the middle of the river?

In addition, is there a similar law re salt-water beaches? Below some line (mean low tide?) it was legal to be there w/out trespassing.

Any clarification greatly appreciated

Sincerely,
Roger

CFM,

Fishing must really be bad. You keep having one wild hair after another this season. As other posters mentioned, this regulation is not unique; several smaller Puget Sound rivers have the same regulation. Frankly, I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. Fishing from a boat on small streams would promote conflict between boat and bank anglers, given that it already happens on a lot of medium sized and large rivers. Also, fishing from a boat would have you right on top of the fish you're after in many cases. Lastly, have you noticed the absence of launching sites there? But you know me. I just carry in my canoe or rubber ducky and put in wherever and get out to wade and fish the better looking spots. Wanna' go in the canoe sometime?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo, Salmo, Salmo,

You too have way to much time on yours hands now adays!

You say; "You keep having one wild hair after another this season." Hey, "apples don't fall far from the tree do they!

When was the last time that we saw you post so many posting turkey?

If my memory is correct, and I know it is, didn't I see you floating on one of my secret "honey holes" last year in your rubber duck boat? Hummmm, I didn't see you getting out of your rubber duck and fish from the banks… did I? I am sure you did, I did not see you!

What fishermen in his right mind would fish on top of his fish salmo? If he does that, he won't half to worry will he? And one more thing salmo, you said; "Lastly, have you noticed the absence of launching sites there?" Da , Da, Da, Da…all the land is now private property… except for the state road easements! Ant there, one can lunch a raft, or platoon boat!

Salmo, I would be proud to go with you...but you need to do the rolling!

Happy New Year Tukey!


Cowlitzfisherman

cfm,

is it possible for you to make your points without being so long-winded. i want to read what you have to say, but if you exercised some brevity and got straight to the point (independent of the topic), your 'points' would get across to a lot more interested readers. maybe i am in the minority here, but i do not have 5 minutes to read each post you make, wish i did.

just my .02 - no offense, i just want to get at what you are trying to say, a little more easily.

nutn

The north fork stilly has the same rule above Cisero and I think most people are fine with it. The river is just too small. If it were open to it, I think there would be a race to see who could pull their plugs through the good holes first. I've floated it several times on my "platoon boat" and never felt that I was at a disadvantage stopping to bank fish.
The north fork also has a motor restriction. You wanna whine about that too?

Nutnbutlip

I wish that life was that simple!!

To inform this board in "less words" or to make it short, "sweet and easy", for a few to read faster is probably not going to happen! Some things in your life will just take a little more time or a little longer to do.

I understand what you are saying, but life just isn't that easy! Reading will be the key to what you learn in this old world, be it by my writings, or by someone else's word. Take the time to read, and you will be far more ahead of the ones that don't!

Apparently both Salmo G and I both get a little long winded at times. But sometimes that is needed to express our full opinions on a subject or topics on this board. Sometimes it seems that the younger you are, the faster you want things to go. But for older folks like me, that is probably not going to happen. We care a lot about the resource and we both tend to want to explain why we feel the way that we do.

Informative issues often take a lot of time to write and answer, and I personally think that anyone who takes that much to write, has a story worth reading. Maybe you and others don't like to tell or inform the board as much as I do, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

Write what you want…and so will I!

PS, I don't take any offense to your comments. This is who I am.

Take care, and WRITE MORE!!

Cowlitzfisherman

fair enuf. i find your posts (and of course salmo's) interesting, but i also have 25,000 items in my inbox from the past two years (work-related primarily). i prefer to read about fishing and related issues on the bb, just think some of us would benefit from some straight to the point chat, where possible. unfortunately with the massive amount of reading that i do, i cannot spend as much time as i like hearing (reading) what you and others have to say about what i care about most, that is, fishing....

A couple of coastal rivers with theose regs ... the lower Elwah and the Hoh in the Park.

No homes there in the park so??????????

Just a couple more for ya

Use to fish the Willapa lot's.........the rule has been in effect since before I started fishing it, and that was 1969.........can remember walking lot's of miles of the river and never saw many others. Haven't fished it in 12-15 yrs. but remember some fine fishing in the lower parts of the river. Seems to me that "bobber and jig"....would be a great way to fish that river...

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

The boat ban is one of the reasons I enjoy fishing the Willipa. You can put the time in, hike to a hole and not worry about boats drifting through or getting beat to a slot. Not saying that sleds or DB's are bad, but its a nice change from other rivers in the area.

I agree with IHOOKEM. You'd do well to be carefull what you wish for..... I'd personally be just fine with similar boating restrictions being placed on even more of our rivers. If you want to float from hole to hole, then fine, I do it all the time on smaller rivers and streams, but the "no fishing from the boat" rule serves to put a damper on the conflict between bankies and boat fishermen.... Also, it serves to cut down on added pressure to some of these smaller rivers. Hell, the only reason some of these smaller rivers are worth a damn, is because they have float restrctions, no put ins or take outs, and very, very, limited public access. If you took one of these small rivers, I don't know, we can use the Willapa, since that's what this thread is about...... The Willapa river doesn't even get 250 Steelhead back to the Hatchery in an average year, so you take this small river and you make all of it and make it accessable to the public, opening up all the private lands and taking away any float restrictions. What do you think that's going to do to this or any small river? Take a look at any public access area on any river in this state...... They're Sh!t holes! Trash everywhere! Hell, keep these smaller rivers off limits to as many people as we can, that's what I say! I'll put my time in, get to know the land owners so that I can fish their lands, the who tell me "No" will just have to deal with me using the loopholes in the property laws to access their lands. I probably wouldn't feel quite this way if I hadn't seen first hand what happens when the general public catches on to a small river and how people will absolutely Sh!t all over the resource, keeping Native Fish, littering, cutting fences, etc. I;m sorry Cowfish, but I gotta disagree with you on this one...... Not every river in this state needs to be turned into another Cowlitz.